i used it as long as it was successful, but when it stopped being successful, i turned the anc into a military armed wing because my plate goal, my overriding principle was premium for my people and justice for my people and anything that would get me there was what road i would take, that's a pragmatist, a pragmatic politician, not a saint. >> rose: jerry? >> yes, you know, i agree, rick is heartfelt on that because he was very pragmatic but one of my reflect shunls after 20 plus years is how real he was. i mean, you know, if you saw him flirtatious or joyful or festive or playful, it was that way when you were behind the scenes or when you were in front of the camera. but wow know, when he went out on any public appearance, howie was being, how he was being projected, how he was moving, i will tell you a very interesting story when we were back back as a family to see him right at towards the end, when the world cup was there. we walked into have just a little personal time with him and he said to me, how did we do? and that is an amazing comment, because he was so interested in how